Thanks for that – I appreciate honest dialogue.

I that spirit, I would like to clarify my position slightly, since you defined how “racism” is to be used here, that every place I used “racism” (or its derivatives) in my posts above, I would like it to read “racial prejudice” (or appropriate derivative) – “racial bigotry” would be a better fit in some places, but worse (and more offensive) in others. I did not intend any of the extra meaning Shawn defined it with above.

It would be nice to have a place to have a tough discussion like this, but moderation would likely be difficult and unpleasant, to put it mildly. Strict limits on admittance would help, but only to a certain extent. It’s a hard topic, and passions flare easily from multiple directions. Even abstaining from further comment (and especially comment by implication) is frustratingly difficult, so I apologize if I did that – I did read over and edit this comment several times to try to avoid it.

also maybe he feels that they’re all being used by the army and that being with the specialists won’t help them get the recognition they deserve?

I understand. I just wish others did.

You talk of intellectual honesty, but you cherry pick my comments, and quote me out of context. I’m not going to play that game with you. I’m not going to keep reiterating my position only to have you pick out the pieces you don’t like.

Deoxy, with whom I started this argument, may not agree with me, but he seems to have made an honest attempt to understand my position, and I respect that. I think you could do the same, if you really tried.

Thanks, man, but I don’t want this to turn into a big melee.

[Snipped supportive comments]

[Snipped argument]

Pretty sure I did “own the error”, when I literally wrote the words “I apologize,” and explained my mistake. Not sure how I could have made it more clear.

But then, I don’t think you’re too concerned with what I’ve actually said, preferring to put your own spin on it. I didn’t say that white mean can’t be discriminated against. What I said is that there is no systemic, institutionalized discrimination against white men. It’s certainly possible that, say, a black employer could choose not to hire a white person because of their race, and that would be wrong. But white people don’t struggle with widespread employment discrimination, so it’s ludicrous to compare random, isolated instances of discrimination against white men against the daily, long-term discrimination that is faced by others.

Put my foot in my mouth? Hardly. I quoted the wrong numbers, saying that there are six non-white Senators, when in fact, there are ten. Ten is definitely better than six, but it’s not proportional with the population of the country. The point I was making still stands, even if Congress is more diverse this year than last year.

What you call a “white guilt complex” is simply my ability to recognize my privilege. And your white victimization complex is your refusal to see your own.

Making assumptions is being hasty in research, that is not an valid defense so own the error. Afterall if you had adequate research it would not be an assumption; time to drop your white-guilt complex.

You have, essentially, repeatedly stated that white men today CANNOT be discriminated against because of history; that there is a progressive stack that means white men can be shat on.

Either you are against discrimination against all people NO MATTER THEIR GROUPING or you are bigoted to some extent.

The sin of the father DOES NOT justify a sin against his child. By defending specifically all but Cis White Male you are contributing to the extension of intergroup issues. Ban me if you want, but it will only prove a point; positive bias IS STILL BIAS.

Time to stop digging the hole and admit you put a foot in your mouth.

I don’t have any direct evidence in regards to the pilots, but I do have an original and replica copy of the guidance given to GIs stationed in mainland UK. Mostly they warn GIs about Brits having no awareness of racial segregation and to be polite to the host nation if they invite coloreds to the same events as whites (they know no better).